Ch-ch-changes May 11, 2008
Something I realized today is that my transition into the Church of JC of LDS is harder on my friends and family then it is on me. I am willing to make changes in my life because I have feel something special in my heart. Other people haven’t had this experience and don’t understand the changes. I also spend a lot of time thinking about my decision to be baptized and about various issues involving the Church. They don’t do that. So they look at me and think, what is wrong with her? Why is she changing so much? Why does she go to church for three hours? Why doesn’t she drink?
Honestly, my habits have changed but my overall personality has not. I’m still the same person that I’ve always been and my relationships with friends and family are the same. I think it’s just a shock to them and I hope that things will get better in time.
Sometimes I feel like I’m being pulled in two directions at once. The missionaries want me to be what I call “more Mormon”. They want me to hurry up and accept things. Their favorite answer is since I “know” the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith’s revelations must be true, and thus whatever they are teaching me must be true. They don’t seem to want to see things from my perspective or to understand that this is also a huge cultural change for me as well.
Then I have my friends pulling on my other arm. They want me to be “less Mormon”. To change more slowly. They have a harder time understanding why I’m choosing to join the LDS Church. They think it’s happening too fast.
Yesterday I met with the missionaries and a couple from the ward and we talked about the Word of Wisdom. Since I knew that I’d have issues with the Word of Wisdom, I’ve been researching and praying about it for several weeks. I’ve changed my habits so that I can obey the Word of Wisdom even though I’m still working on the drinking aspect. I tried to explain to them where I’m coming from. Drinking is a big part of my (college, twenty-something, secular) culture. The other group thing is that I have a hard time taking advice about drinking from people who have never tried alcohol. I wanted credit for what I’ve done so far, but the missionaries wanted a firm commitment that I will live the Word of Wisdom. I told them that I was doing the best I can. I went home feeling frustrated.
Side note: one missionary also implied that my boyfriend is a bad influence on me. He compared my bf to a drill sergeant who seriously harassed and was abusive toward one of the other missionaries who used to be a marine. Personally I think the missionary has issues with his nonmember father and takes it out on me and my boyfriend. I’m having a hard time interacting with and trusting this missionary now and I don’t want him to be a part of my baptism. If this becomes a bigger problem, what can I do about it? Can I talk to his mission president? Should I confront the missionary directly and tell him that he’s making me uncomfortable? I know that his behavior isn’t typical of all missionaries.
There’s more to this post/topic including some positive things. 
But I have a migraine so I’ll probably post the rest of it later.
Hello. FIrst off, I love the theme design for your blog. VERY cool.
Anyway, I was just going to say a few things. I am not a Mormon, but I do appreciate their dedication to strong families and their often moral lives.
The thing I have with it though is it is a religion that cannot save. I read your comment policy, so I won’t try to convert via comments (although you can email me anytime), but I’ll just lay down some facts for you to consider. If you ask the LDS missionaries what you must do for exaltation, they will lay out their plan of salvation for you. It may include things like faith, baptism by their church, giving, following the Word of Wisdom, and other good works. This goes against the Bible in Ephesians 2:8-9. Please consider what God has to say in those verses. We could never do enough if it was up to you or me. “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all,” (James 2:10). “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them,’” (Gal. 3:10).
I just ask that you consider these scriptures. I have more I could say. I could attack the history and archeology of the Book of Mormon. I could show false prophesies. Maybe we will get to that one day, but for now let’s allow those scriptures to sink in. And let me give you one more verse to consider when thinking back of your revelation that the Book of Mormon is true. Jeremiah 17:9 says “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Please don’t trust your feelings from a deceitful heart. The Bible says to test these things, not to pray about them and hope for a supernatural confirmation. Please test the faith. Best wishes. Hope to hear back from you.
Hi Justin. Thanks for respecting my comment policy. Actually, the LDS Church teaches that all people will be saved from physical death. Those who follow Jesus Christ and repent will be saved from sin. It does require baptism. Exaltation requires both faith and works in the sense that you cannot achieve exaltation by faith alone, nor by works alone. The Church is very clear that salvation is only possible by the atonement of Jesus Christ. The LDS concept of salvation, exaltation and what happens before and after death is really quite interesting. Actually, I find most religious ideas about death and the hereafter interesting.
Anyhow, thank you for not trying to convert me or attack my faith. I find that interfaith dialogue is much more productive that way. However the LDS faith is the path that I’ve chosen, and I’m happy with it.
I realize the LDS church teaches “salvation” in one sense of the general resurrection, but since that resurrection coud include being cast into outer darkness/hell for some people (or hopefully the lowest form of heaven), it is not the salvation I am speaking of. The salvation you really are hoping for is the one that needs works, and as Ephesians 2:8-9 show, that is not scriptural.
The definitions of the words ‘works’, ‘faith’, ‘grace’, and ’salvation’ are the real problems in this ongoing argument.
When Paul wrote to the Galatians and the Romans, ‘works’ referred specifically to the Law of Moses because there was a large contingency of ‘Judaizers’ (cultural Jews who insisted gentiles adopt Jewish customs–like circumcision–before becoming Christians) among the early Christians. Centuries later, Martin Luther borrowed Paul’s argument to highlight the problems in the Catholic Church, where ‘works’ meant hollow, outward ordinances purported to ensure salvation (i.e. selling indulgences).
These days most protestants interpret ‘works’ to mean ‘doing good.’ Now, they don’t condemn doing good things; the beef is when you do them because you think it will send you to heaven. They are right: no good deeds, standing alone, will bring you to the pearly gates, but it becomes a bit of a leap when they say we are supposed to get to the pearly gates without doing any good deeds.
The reality is that Jesus does require action on our parts. We believe Him when He says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:16 Jesus also declared, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 7:21
Baptism itself is not enough to obtain from Jesus the ‘grace’ we cannot generate on our own, but baptism is a token of our ‘faith’ in Jesus Christ. It shows Him that we are willing to accept His ‘grace’ and live His kind of life.
Sunlize,
I read this post and want to advise you: If you feel the missionaries pressing you forward faster than you feel ready, you must slow it down. I suggest you ask them to please not force you to accept things you do not yet accept, understand, have not been revealed unto you yet. But remind them that it will happen when the time is right. Also somehow fit in the statment, “Line upon line and presept upon presept.” This will remind them to slow down and make sure you understand the lessons before rushing off to baptism. In the LDS Church we use this phrase to remind ourselves that we must first learn the simple things before we are ready to dig deeper into the gospel.
For example: God (the father) so loved the world that he gave his son to die for the sins of the world. We must accept this general statment before we can see how power that love is. meaning I could not send my son to die for anyone or anything, but God the Father has.
Anyways back to my point, Ask questions and do speak up for yourself. The missionaries sometimes get excited when teaching the lessons and their excitment tends to push then faster than the investigator is ready to go, often the investigator does not slow it down and just lets the missionaries spoon in the information. If you need time to intake, (Ponder) and decied on the materal you are learning, have currage and slow it down.
you should know that Justin and I have discussed the meaning of salvation for quite some time and I could argue with him that faith without works is dead. But there is another place for that discourse.
God Bless, and may the light of truth shine down upon you,
-D
Mark 16:16 is not saying that baptism is a requirement for salvation.
#4 - I totally agree that the definitions of certain words are key with interreligious dialogue. Sometimes we forget that words have different meanings and connotations to different people. Thanks for the more detailed description of LDS beliefs about salvation.
#5 - Thanks for the advice. I really wish there would be a missionary feedback form where investigators could leave some feedback about their experiences with the missionaries. Or maybe they could use some empathy training. Anyhow, I’m planning on having a little discussion with them tomorrow about the whole thing. I also want to remind them that they need to take my needs and feelings into consideration and not just throw things at me and then ask me to make commitments immediately.
#5 and 6 - I’m sure you two could discuss the meaning and requirements for salvation forever.
Oh, I forgot to add that I saw a blog post on some using words to discuss religion and how the same word can have very different meanings to different people. It’s over at Mormon Matters - http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/10/offenders-for-a-word-part-1-is-jesus-god.
Sunlize, that won’t be necessary. Romans 10:9-10 is simple enough.
Sunlize, the missionaries receive a lot of pressure to baptize ppl as fast as possible. A rift in the mind occasionally occurs w/in the missionary’s mind as he/she tries to rationalize the idea of a person being sufficiently ready to be baptized and the leadership’s push to have as many baptism’s as possible. This is why they can seem to get a bit pushy. If you really don’t want the missionary to be a part of your baptism then just wait until he is sent to a different area. If you don’t want to wait that long you could attempt to talk to the mission president. A funnier way to it would be to start a rumor that you have a crush on this missionary and this will get him transferred away lickety-split…I am being sarcastic. (Although this happened more than once while on my mission.)
The easiest but somewhat most difficult way would be to just tell the missionary how you feel. Be honest w/ him and let him take however he wants. But make it clear that he is not to speak ill of your BF anymore.
Also, if you are not feeling ready to get baptized then don’t do it yet. Sometimes missionaries feel that if they don’t baptize you ASAP then you will be tempted by the devil to lose interest in the church and never get baptized. However, they forget that if you get baptized for the wrong reasons or b4 you are ready then you are more likely to not stick w/ the church even after your baptized.
I cannot emphasize enough the importance of just doing what you feel is right. If what is right for you 20 years from now is different than what feels right 2day then that is okay. Live in the moment and make the best choice possible. I hardly think that God is going to fault any person for trying to do the right thing.
Furthermore, if works don’t matter then what harm is there in becoming a Mormon anyway. Mormon’s believe in Jesus Christ and every meaningful and pertinent doctrine stems from and of JC.
And in regard to this whole doctrine debate, discussion, inquiry (or whatever one wants to call it)…I see it as somewhat frivolous. If it really was so simple then there would not be so many christian sects and denominations 2day.
That said I think many of Paul’s statements are confusing and contradictory. It amazes me cuz in the NT we have the writing of maybe 5 of the some 16 or so apostles that lived during the NT times and most of the writing come from Paul who seemed to oftentimes speak with opinions rather than saying things like…”thus sayeth the Lord.”
Anyway…I really like this comment by Thomas Jefferson where he said, “Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christian.” Whether it is true or not we will never know but I found the statement interesting…Especially because TJ was of the opinion that Paul’s writings were the beginning of the confusion of these doctrines by making philosophy out of the Christ’s teachings. I tend to somewhat concur w/ him. I even think that w/in the Mormon church the leaders have overstepped there bounds on occasion by overcomplicating the gospel to mean more than just Love God and neighbor by explaining leadership micromanagement as something a member needs to obey but this is only a current opinion of mine, which, as usual, is subject to change.
But back to the original thought…Sunlize, do what you feel is right…you don’t need a supernatural experience or anything…follow your desires, mind, logic, spirit, and whatever else you can draw upon and make the best choice for you. I can’t imagine a God who can fault someone for that.
One more thing that the missionaries may be concerned w/ is whether or not you could possibly end up living w/ your BF in the future b4 getting married.
Sunlize,
Thank you for the link. you made the comment, “the same word can have very different meanings to different people…”
And I agree with you so much on this. I have seen this active not only in religous discussion but in many discussions on culture and folklore as well. Thank you again for pointing this out.
Justin,
It must be necessary to at least make the statement, else you are wasting Sunlize’s time. Just accept that not everyone will agree to the correct meaning of all words nor the correct interpretation of scripture.
Peace to you all, in the name of Jesus christ,
-D
ditchu, if we are wrong on the essentials, then we do not have salvation. That is why it is so important to me.
#9 - I wasn’t suggesting that you should discuss it forever.
#10-Thanks for the suggestions. I met with them today and didn’t give my little talk about empathy and respect. Also, I wrote that post while I was having a migraine so I think that I was more upset than I should have been. And I understand that the missionaries have a very hard job, but that’s no excuse to be disrespectful. In regard to the one missionary, he seemed much more friendly today. I really do think that his remark had more to do with his father than with my bf. And I’d be ok with him being part of my baptism. I’ll post more about this later.
#11-Well they could just ask him and he would gladly tell them that he doesn’t believe in living together before marriage. Or if they asked me I would point out that we won’t even be living in the same state for another year and a half. We might even be married and still be living apart due to school (ugh). I think they could be worried that he would influence me to leave the church. But I’m too stubborn for that.
Sunlize,
Glad to hear it! It is refereshing to hear about others that are too stuborne to be led blindly into or away from what they beleive.
I appologize about the debate on your blog. I recognisize this is not the place for the discussion that is accually currentlly held on another blog. Sorry if it was me that keep pushing the debate here.
on a more personal note (i just feel the need to say this to you): Have a nice day. You’re such a kind person, you deserve it.
-D
Sunlize,
Follow your heart. If you want to take it slow, do it. Don’t do something b/c someone else wants you to. That goes for both the LDS church members as well as your friends. Follow your heart and the promptings of the Spirit. Keep moving forward in a positive direction. If you feel this is the way God’s leading you then act on the promptings of the Spirit. When I joined the LDS church I did it b/c I felt it in my heart very strongly. My mother didn’t speak with me for over 6 years afterwards, but so many blessings came into my life because of it. Everything good in my life can be traced back to that decision.
If you feel prompted to get baptised, do it. If you feel prompted to leave your boyfriend, do it. Any other thing you may feel a prompting for, act on it. You won’t regret it.
http://www.graceforgrace.com
#15 - Ditchu, don’t worry about the debate. As long as I’m not dragged into it and you two play nicely then feel free to chit chat here. It’s kind of funny that you too have a debate that spans across several blogs though. And thanks, I did have a nice day.
I hope yours was good too.
#16 - ama49, thanks for the advice. I feel very strongly about the LDS church too. I feel like I’m coming home to a place I was always meant to be. Nevertheless, change is difficult. I’m sorry to hear about your mother, but I’m glad it was such a great decision for you.”Any other thing you may feel a prompting for, act on it.” - that’s great advice and I’ll definitely try to remember that.
[...] feeling well so I cried through most of it. Basically I said the same things that I said in Ch-ch-changes. I’ve asked him to be open with me about his thoughts and feelings. I think I was [...]